we had a pakistan cricket scandal, caught a politician with trousers around his ankles after getting voted in as a happy married man. every couple months five million people bought that and 12 million people read that. so the important stories have massive power that they wouldn't otherwise have had. >> obviously these techniques look very different when they're employed against ordinary people who are not celebrities, not famous athletes, not members of the royal family. you mentioned hugh grant. his phone was hacked by "news of the world." he is suinging. you had a chance encounter, and he actually taped your conversation. let me play a little of that for our viewers. >> do you think it's right the only person with a decent digital scanner these days is the government. 20 years ago we all had a gone. are you comfortable that the only people who can listen to them now are -- >> celebrities themself, you justify because they're reach? >> yeah, i mean -- >> if you don't like it, just get off the stage. you don't believe celebrities have any right to privacy at all it sounds like? >> w